Andrew: Hey everybody, we are here with Tyson Mutrux. I wanted to bring Tyson on because he is a personal injury attorney that does a lot with social media, which are my two favorite things. Anyone that follows me knows that I believe that all attorneys should be using social media.
Tyson runs a Facebook group with other lawyers in the Facebook group and is a really good example of how you can manage your practice and also manage a social media presence. I wanted to bring him on and discuss this a bit more.
Can you tell everybody a little bit about yourself, what you do as an attorney, and what you do with social media?
Tyson: I’m a personal injury lawyer in St. Louis, with another office in Columbia, Missouri. I’ve had my own firm for eight years. I used to work for another firm that did a bunch of advertising with TV, billboards, radio ads, etc.
Interesting enough, they didn’t do a lot of social media or SEO. If you were to look them up on Google right now, they got terrible reviews. They don’t focus on any of that.
I started my own firm after leaving that firm and currently have a team of eight people. We run a pod system. We also have the Maximum Lawyer podcast where we have attorneys all the time and discuss practice management and marketing.
How Tyson Mutrux Incorporates Social Media Into His Marketing
Andrew: What do you do for your own marketing? Do you incorporate social into your own marketing as well?
Tyson: Oh absolutely. I think you have to. If you don’t, then you’re missing the point of a lot of all this that’s going on, but I think we do a little bit different. I think we do some of the generic push things that you see people doing.
For example, I did something yesterday where we pushed to get out the vote, but I don’t like to do that too much. I think it’s too generic, and people ignore it, but I’ll do it occasionally.
We try to make it a little more organic with our social media where I wrap together my personal life and the business a lot, especially with a lawyer. I get a bunch of social media question and Facebook messages about legal issues, so it’s hard to separate those two. It really is wrapped in together with each other a little. I want to be a lot more organic.
I think if you if you try to push all the stuff out to people, they’re going to ignore it. About four or five years ago, we hired a social media manager because we thought we should hire somebody to do this, but it doesn’t work that way. Social media is like a billboard that you interact with and you can’t interact with some weird person in some other country or another state. They want to interact with you.
Having a social media manager, in my opinion, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I think it can be done right in certain areas, but I think, for the most part, you have to interact with the people. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Social media is social for a reason.
Andrew: Yeah exactly. It’s all about value and if you look at the traditional forms of social media, the way that social media is actually intended to work before marketers got on and ruined everything, there’s three pillars.
There’s your content which you put your own content out. There is sharing other people’s content, and then there’s interacting and having conversations with people.
This is where a lot of attorneys make mistakes. They share their own content, and then they forget about the other two. They don’t share other things, and they definitely don’t interact with people.
What you find is that that interaction adds value and that personal connection is the secret to social media. That’s how to make it work.
Tyson: I think it’s a little more complicated with a lawyer because if you have a closed Facebook group and they’re asking legal questions, I think you can make an argument if you’re on the other side that you’ve now waived attorney-client privilege because they’re asking you these questions in that group.
That’s why I haven’t done that, although I think if done the right way, it’s doable. You have to be very careful about what you do. You charge nothing for your Facebook group where you provide a ton of tips, you’re just giving value away. I think that’s really what you have to do.
That’s why we do a lot of videos and put them out. I mean I did a simple one on Friday where I was in my hoodie. I went home early on Friday, and I had my hoodie on in my home office.
I shot a little video about a conversation I had with a client about an insurance adjuster because the insurance adjuster hadn’t done any investigation on the case. It was sort of like a “what to look out for” kind of thing, and people watch that, and they really interact with it. I mean I had people sharing it on Twitter.
I shot a two-minute video. I clipped it down to a minute so I could share it on Twitter and Instagram, I shot in different places, and people share it all over the place. I was providing value to potential clients.
Some of the other content I provide is for other attorneys, and they can get some value from my content as well. For example, if they are new PI attorney and they don’t know how to deal with an insurance adjuster, they can get value from my videos too.
People Don’t Want Robots, They Want Humans
Andrew: Exactly. Something I want to point out about what you just said. You said you were wearing a hoodie and you just pulled out your phone and filmed it. I think a lot of people are so obsessed with looking perfect, that it stops them.
I used to do the same thing. When I first started, I used to always make sure I was wearing a button-down shirt and then that one day, I just kind of realized I don’t care.
Nobody cares like as long as the information is valuable. Nobody’s going to say, the information was great, but I’m not going to listen to because he’s wearing a t-shirt.
Tyson: There are a few lessons of this. One, if you want it to be too perfect, you’re never going to do it. Oh, I’m too tired today, or I don’t have my suit on.
The other part of it is if you look at the numbers, the statistics show that the polished videos don’t get watched or clicked on as much. The rougher around the edges videos, like the cell phone videos, they get watched far more than those polished videos.
I have a green room a few rooms that we built out. It’s got the camera equipment, the lighting and all that, but we never use it because they’re not as not as effective as just using that rough video.
Andrew: And, it’s so much easier for me to pull out my phone and just hit record than it is to set up my 4k video, all my lights in the backdrop, and make sure the lighting and sound are perfect. Done is better than perfect. That’s my motto for everything.
Tyson: No, for sure. I’m wearing some jeans and tennis shoes right now, and I’ll tell you how many times clients love meeting you like this because they’re like you’re a human being, you’re not a robot. People really like that, especially as a lawyer.
People think that they want to see me in the suit. No, they don’t. They want to see that you’re a human being.
It’s the whole cliché of liking and then trusting someone. It all wraps into that. They don’t need some guy that is all polished, they want to see that you’re someone that they can relate too.
Andrew: I think times are also changing. With the age of the Internet and social media, there’s more exposure and behind-the-scenes for everything. Even reality TV takes you behind the scenes, and you realize that you want somebody more personal.
The reality is that nobody is perfect. People can relate to others that have the same problems that they have. For example, I did a video where my dog was in the background barking and my wife was like yelling at the dog be quiet. That was one of my best videos because everybody’s like hey, what kind of dog you have?
I was able to relate to people on that level, and we started talking about our dogs and all that type of stuff. It just makes it much more personable and shows that you are a real person and that sometimes, my three-year-old is going to walk in the room while I’m filming a video.
Tyson: You’re creating all these different points to connect with someone. When you are bringing in these other parts of your life, that’s another way for them to connect with you.
I’m looking around your office right now, and, if you pulled a book off of the shelf and then talked about it briefly, they have that connection with you. You’re bringing in these elements of your life, it’s ways you connect.
How To Provide Value
Andrew: So, let’s go back to the value thing. That’s what I think stops people because they think they don’t know what to talk about, but the reality is that the information is in your head. Everything you know about personal injury or criminal defense is valuable information that somebody that’s in that situation does not know.
It’s just like your video for dealing with an insurance adjuster. To you, that’s second nature, but to somebody that was just in a car accident, that’s really valuable information to know.
Anytime you can put that content out there and help people solve small problems, you’re going to make that connection. They’re going to see your value and want to follow up with more questions.
With estate planning or bankruptcy, what I found is that even though you’ve told all your secrets, people will still always hire you so they can ask more questions or to get it done better and faster. A lot of people worry about giving away too much, but I didn’t give everything away because at the end of the day, you’re just going to show how complicated some things are and they’re not going to want to touch it, but now they’re going to see that you understand it and you’re the authority.
Tyson: It’s funny that you say that, because that last point, I think is really important. You can tell them step by step by step by step by step, and if you think I’m giving away all my secrets, that’s not how they’re looking at it.
They are looking at it as, “oh my gosh, I’ve got to do all this work. I’m not going to do that. I’m going to give it off to someone else.” With personal injuries especially, it doesn’t cost me anything out of the pocket up front, so they’re more willing to do it.
I used to do a lot of criminal defense. I don’t do it anymore, but you explain all the stuff that they have to go through with their case, they’re not going to hire a public defender. They’re going to get that money to hire you. There’s a variety of ways you can do it to differentiate yourself and show that you are the thought leader in that area.
You can show how complicated it is to do it and how much work you do to show your value. There’s a lot of reasons you can do that, and it’s not going to hurt you. They’re not going to steal it from you. They’re not going to go out and start selling what you’re talking about. There is very little risk of that happening.
Andrew: I’ll do step-by-step tutorial videos where I’m literally recording my screen, saying okay, click here, click here, click here, click here and I’ll put it out, and I’ll still get 50 questions about it. All I’m doing is proving that I’m an authority on it and that I can do this for you if you need help with this. The biggest risk for me is that other marketing companies see this and start doing it.
Tyson: Let’s say that that happens. My guess is that if they’re going to call you and if they call the other marketing company, they have conversations with both of you, and you talk about how you created this video. If they start hearing that other person repeat the same things that you talked about on that video, they’re going to know that they stole it from you.
So, who cares? I mean, maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but you’ll still benefit out of it.
Andrew: That’s why I give a lot of this stuff away because of my agency’s full. We’re not really taking new clients. Every once in a while, we do, but we really don’t take that many new clients because I don’t need 15,000 clients.
We’ve got about 50 clients. We know we can handle and do a good job for 50 clients. But, there’s a lot of lawyers that constantly contact us and need help.
I just started putting stuff out initially just so people can figure out what good marketing is and what good marketing isn’t. It is amazing how many conferences I’ll go to, and I’ll talk to other people that do marketing for lawyers. Like I’ll go to a general search engine optimization conference, and there are always two or three people there that do marketing for lawyers, and I’ll meet them for lunch. By the end of it, because I have this habit where I give away all my information, they’ll be sitting there taking notes from all the stuff I’m telling them.
Tyson: There is that element of the go-getter part of it too. Who knows, that advice you gave these people, maybe in a couple of years, they’ll remember you if they’ve got a conflict or something. It’s not going to hurt you.
Andrew: I’ve never had anything bad happen from giving advice and sharing what I know. The only negative outcomes I’ve experienced have been from when I’ve held information back and didn’t get the outcome that I was looking for versus when I tell everything I know and give someone really good advice. It’s always good when I accomplish what I’m trying to accomplish.
The Negative Aspects Of Putting Yourself Out There
Tyson: I’ll tell you one negative, especially if you start it with a video. You start getting haters. Now I don’t care what network you’re on. I don’t care who you share with, there will be some point where someone says something bad about you.
When you first see it, it kind of pisses you off. If you look at my YouTube channel today, there are negative and stupid comments. But who cares?
At the end of the day, people are consuming my content, and they’re calling me. That’s what I really care about. You’re going to get some haters every once in a while, but who cares? There’re haters in every single industry.
Andrew: There’s a guy named Dan Henry, he’s a marketer and my business coach. But because he does a lot of videos also and gets trolls all the time, he was saying that nobody leaves a comment on your videos that are doing better than you are. Just think about that.
The trolls are just people that have nothing else going on. You almost feel bad for those people, but having haters is also a sign that you’re getting out there.
I always tell people to leave negative comments just because once there’s one negative comment. It’s easier for more trolls to keep piling on. Nobody wants to go to a party and start being a jerk, but if there’s already a bunch of jerks at the party, it’s easy for them to be a hater.
I’ve got a lot of things you can pick on me for. I’m horrible on camera. I have permanent raccoon eyes from sunglasses because I keep them on when running and I get sunburned. It is what it is, I can’t help it, but I get comments about that type of stuff. I also don’t see anybody doing better than me that’s leaving negative comments on my videos.
Tyson: I received a negative comment that had all these spelling errors and curses words, and it made no sense. It was about an old video I did probably five or six years ago about getting a warrant recalled. I had no idea what the comment meant, but it made me think, what are you doing all day that you have time to sit down and troll people on YouTube?
Social Media Is The Way To Go — But How Do You Begin The Process?
Andrew: I talk to a lot of attorneys, and everyone pretty much agrees that social media is the way to go but no one can really kind of figure out where to start, a lot of people can’t. So what advice would you give an attorney who knows social media is the way to go, but they don’t necessarily know where to begin? What would you tell them to do?
Tyson: I’d say start with just one social media platform. I’d probably recommend that they get into Facebook. If it’s a younger demographic they’re targeting, I’d say go to Instagram. People seem to be more heading that way, but I don’t know it seems like Facebook has been very versatile and they’ve been able to adapt even though all these other platforms have come out.
Just show what you do, pictures of yourself outside the courtroom, outside the courthouse, etc. Focus on content that allows people to peek in because being a lawyer is not something that most people get to be.
There’s a reason why there’s a lot of doctor and lawyer shows on TV because people dream about being them and they find it very interesting. If you can reveal yourself and show the things that you do, it’s interesting to these people.
You get to reveal yourself, and they get to know you better and then they are going to call you when they need something.
- Pick one platform
- Pull the curtain back
- Put content out there.
It’s pretty basic, but that’s what social media is. It’s interacting with people. It is one of the most basic things we do as humans, which communicates with each other. That’s what you are doing, communicate with people.
Andrew: You brought up a good point about just documenting what you do. That’s what Gary Vaynerchuk does. He says document, don’t create.
How To Balance Social Media And Being An Attorney
Andrew: You manage a firm, you’re a practicing attorney, and you also manage to do social media. How do you balance that all out? How often do you create videos and content for social media? How do you make it all work for you? I ask because a lot of people have this misconception that they don’t have time for both. So, how do you do it?
Tyson: That’s BS. You have time for it because the people watching are already on social media. So, they’ve already had some sort of connection. They’ve got the account set up. It’s just them not putting out the content.
I have on my calendar for every day at 3:30 pm to produce 30 minutes of content. You need to slot it on your calendar to start producing content, carve out a time each week or each day to produce it, then get it out there. Then you can use tools for scheduling that are pretty helpful like Hootsuite or Buffer. There’s even a tool called Agorapulse, where you can schedule these things out and communicate all in one app, so it’s not that complicated.
At the end of the day, it’s another marketing channel. You have to treat it that way. You have to harvest your crops, so to speak. You plant the seeds and then, later on, you harvest your crops.
Every day, you’re planting your seeds, you’re tending your crops, and you have to keep doing that. It’s not a one-shot thing like with pay-per-click, where you spend a little money, and you get some phone calls.
It doesn’t work that way with social media. You have to do it every single day, spend time on it, and interact with people. It’s a really big mistake if, you spend a lot of time creating content and then, you completely stop, and no one hears from you.
With their algorithm, Facebook’s probably going to push you down on the feed because they want to see that consistent interaction. The other issue is that people want to hear from you, interact with you and doing it in quick bursts like that doesn’t work that much. So, you got to be consistent about it.
Andrew: The other issue is that everybody makes excuses. If you can actually do it and stay with it, unlike pay per click, SEO, radio, and billboards, you will have no competition. That’s the most appealing part of it for me, is that there’s no competition because the barrier to entry, it’s not that hard, but most people think it’s hard, and that keeps a lot of people away.
I talked to a guy yesterday who started doing what I told him to do in September, and he’s already gotten four cases, with two being wrongful death cases. It’s just from social media and a Facebook group that has 300 people in it. This stuff works, it absolutely works, and he’s in New Orleans, which is a huge market.
Tyson: There are no tricks here, there really isn’t, you do it. You reveal yourself, and you make sure you don’t sound like an asshole when you do it. Just be yourself, be nice to people, interact with people on social media, and it just happens, it’s easy.
Andrew: Well listen, it was great chatting. I know you have the Maximum Lawyer Facebook group, everyone should hop in there, but you also have the Maximum Lawyer podcast, which can be found at maximumlawyer.com.
Tyson: Honestly, the best place to go is just to the Facebook group and get involved there. You have to request to be in it and then agree not to market to people, and you can come to the group. My coach Jim Hacking and I, we interact in the group, but we hardly post things on it anymore. It’s mostly other people posting stuff, and we interact with them. It’s a great environment because people are more than willing to share all their secrets.